Edited transcript of chat with Jeff Parker, author of "A
Long Wild Smile"
October 31, 2002; 2-3:15 PST
English
165LT: Hypertext Fiction & Digital Poetries
Department of English, UC Santa Barbara
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-- Note: edited transcript registers both EST and PST--
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:26:28 PM |
hey, i've been asked to paste in a short informal beginning..and we'll see if this thing works. A few words with which we may begin: The way I see it there are two kinds of hypertexts: those that intend to deconstruct their form or interrogate the code (codework) somehow and those that have a clear narrative or lyric intention to communicate. I suppose you could say there's a third that tries to do both of these things as well. The majority of hypertexts out there are trying to do the former or are much more objects or areas of installment art than stories or poems say. (Granted all these distinctions blur; one wonders why even bother trying to keep the semantics straight.) My interest is in the latter. I see hypertext as a genuinely new way to do what I like to do, tell stories, play with words, make up things in my head. Broadly speaking, hypertext is a structural innovation. Rather than arranging texts on consecutive pages in a bound book, we arrange them on a hyperlinked sequence of web pages, or in the cells of a database, or within the algorithms of some program itself. What is hypertext for me? It's something new, something to experiment with. No more really; and no less. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:27:40 PM | how did you get into this line of work? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:28:05 PM | building websites and simultaneously being a writer/ journalist |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:28:49 PM | if you feel hypertext to be experimental, then you wouldn't consider investing a significant amount of time in it? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:29:00 PM | Journalist for what zine/paper? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:29:16 PM | how else are you going to conduct the experiment... it takes time and patience |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:29:29 PM | significant amount of time in experiments? sure why not? i suppose one has to try to make something successful, invest time that is. |
| Andrea Stoll | 10/31/02 | 5:29 :35 PM | If you only see this work as something new, then are you only in it for the exploration? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:30:19 PM | andrea, that's certainlyl the excitement factor. experimental writing has been going on for decades, centuries really... |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:30:57 PM | in regards to the long wild smile, did you find yourself getting lost in the different nodes? Because reading it was a bit difficult, but how did you form the idea and style for the piece? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:31:24 PM | yes, i do get lost in the chronology of it...one of the problems with hypertext, let me explain: |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:31:40 PM | is there a chronology? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:31:44 PM | is there any relevance in studying experimental writing as opposed to just producing it- outside the academic setting |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:32:03 PM | and how easy was it to implement your ideas in flash, or did your ideas come out of experimenting with it...? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:32:08 PM | if you have a quasi print hypertext like tristram shandy or pale fire, or hopscotch...it necessarily feels more contained i think, if only because you have the dominion over it by virtue of holding it in your hands.... |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:32:20 PM | was it hard to keep the story lines together, or did you just write them as brief snippits and then toss them into a bag and determine the order that way? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:32:44 PM | on screen, in the web, there's a kind of anxiousness, a susceptibility to getting lost and not being able to find your way back or make any sense of wherw you are...of course some people want precsely that. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:33:02 PM | it's fun being lost |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:33:18 PM | it makes it a bit difficult to put in academia though |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:33:27 PM | the "order" is determined by the links. and the links are all crafted specifically to elicit a certain effect if you will... |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:33:32 PM | how did you get your start in hypertext? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:33:58 PM | i did an article on rick pryll, who wrote "lies" in 1994 for a newspaper in florida. and i thought it was interesting.... |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:34:45 PM | With A long wild smile, is there a specific way of clicking the nodes so the passages make sense? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:34:45 PM | the "order" of the peice is determined by what you click in, and granted that order can get chaotic, so i tried to write chuncks that didn't depend on other chunks unless i could provide a specific link back to that chunk...make sense? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:35:01 PM | when writing hypertext, do you see the process as chaotic, or the opposite, ultimately structured? Both? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:35:06 PM | yes, that makes sense |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:36:20 PM | well...you have to adjust your reading style somewhat for hypertext, at the very least. you have to be willing to live with some degree of confusion. instead of gathering information linearalyly you have to read a given number of chuncks to begin to form an idea of the story. you might dsay if you only have to read the first line of a story to know if you want to read it,,,maybe with hyperetxt you have to read the first 10 chunks or something... |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:36:50 PM | isn't chat an eloquent medium? |
| Andrea Stoll | 10/31/02 | 5:37:09 PM | yes |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:37:18 PM | eloquent, perhaps, confusing, indeed |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/02 | 5:37:32 PM | my point proven then, but ultimately we'll make some sense i expect. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/02 | 5:37:53 PM | And generally, how accepting are the people who are used to bare-bones english academia? |
| Andrea Stoll | 10/31/02 | 5:38:05 PM | Do you think that the confusion still works for you in the way of trying to make sense of the world? what does the confusion mean for you? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:39:11 PM | it is experimental as i said, and all experiments don't work out. i don't think ALWS is necessarily a successful story. i think it succeeds in ways. but internet publications get read very well and that's rewarding...i've had stories come out in journals that to my knowledge no one ever read but you often get feedback online... |
| Rita Raley | 10/31/2002 | 2:39:37 PM | when you get a chance could you say something about the competitions and prizes for hypertext? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:40:11 PM | my intent is not to confuse...but like i said, readers have to adjust for true nonlinearity and a certain degree of handsoffedness... |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:40:19 PM | do you intend to use the confusion of hypertext to encourage a more emotional response from the reader? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:40:50 PM | the electronic literature organization gives out $10K to the best hypertext poem and fiction each year. [Electronic Literature Organization 2001 awards | trAce/Alt-X new media writing awards] |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:40:55 PM | wow |
| Rita Raley | 10/31/2002 | 2:41:14 PM | many of the students have been wondering about the "value" of new media writing - does it pay, who reads it, is it just elitist, etc. |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:41:17 PM | that's a national book award caliber award, so there is some possibility for monetary recognition... |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:41:33 PM | money matters not when it comes to art |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:42:12 PM | there were a number of contests in the past. in fact when i was editor at a samll literary journal called salt hill, i held and awarded the first one, in 1997. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:42:15 PM | do you have a piece you are particularly proud of? |
| Andrea Stoll | 10/31/2002 | 2:42:22 PM | What is considered to win the prize? How is the work judged? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:42:38 PM | proud? i tend to hate things i do for a while. |
| Rita Raley | 10/31/2002 | 2:42:42 PM | A Long Wild Smile is quite well know in the hypertext community - it more or less made Parker famous |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:43:02 PM | the alws piece is definitely the first time i got it...the other times, i was just making collages. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:43:05 PM | is self-loathing part of your creative process? |
| Rita Raley | 10/31/2002 | 2:43:29 PM | parker you said recently that you thought hypertext was disappearing - do you want to say more about this? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:44:00 PM | that must have been during one of my self-loathing periods.... |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:44:29 PM | howdo you see hypertext evolving in the future? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:44:31 PM | well, someone asked about flash earlier for instance....amd i don't really use flash bc i think it is bad for text. |
| Julius | 10/31/2002 | 2:44:36 PM | for the evaluation of hypertext, do you believe that new criteria must be established? can we judge hypertext along the same lines we consider modern literature in print form? |
| Rita Raley | 10/31/2002 | 2:44:43 PM | are you doing any flash or java work these day? are you going to move beyond the link? (parker has an essay on the "poetics of the link") |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:44:49 PM | Why is it bad for text? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:45:11 PM | flash has been my favorite so far |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:45:16 PM | the trend toward flash and multimedia and codework in general i think establishes that hyper"text" may be changing at least if not going away. |
| Andrea Stoll | 10/31/2002 | 2:45:28 PM | What is your favorite artist or piece of work? What is your favorite part about hypertext? |
| Rita Raley | 10/31/2002 | 2:45:29 PM | Do you really think Flash is somehow going to spell the end of reading - the triumph of the image over words? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:45:29 PM | do you forsee a merging of digital media when it comes to hypertext, and if so, will pieces like alws, which rely primarily on text fading in the genre? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:46:17 PM | Do you plan on doing any print text work or have you done any already? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:46:25 PM | why is it that flash has to triumph over words can't it be possible that it just enhances them, making the text more interactive with the reader and therefore more interesting to read |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:47:22 PM | do you write in code, or with programs? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:47:38 PM | i'm looking toward video and audio accomnpaniments...trying to make texts that read more like the text we're used to finding in these contexts these days...and this certainly includes the trends in internet publishing of fiction: |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:48:10 PM | mcsweeney's, pindeldyboyz, the american journal of print, sweet fancy moses, are all literary sites publishing a certain brand of writing, an internet brand you might say, but it's not hypertext. |
| Rita Raley | 10/31/2002 | 2:48:15 PM | what are you doing currently with sound? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:49:18 PM | with sound, i'm trying very literal things. readings, voice overs...not the kind of mark amerika phoneme sound texts |
| Julius | 10/31/2002 | 2:49:32 PM | for the evaluation of hypertext, do you believe that new criteria must be established? can we judge hypertext along the same lines we consider modern literature in print form? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:49:50 PM | if you are writing texts more like those we are used to finding doesn't that take away from the experimentation that first got you involved |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:50:26 PM | i guess if we're being honest we can. like i can ask you did you like it? did it teach you something? did it make you think? did it make you feel? and if you're being honest and say no, then i guess we can safely say it didn't work right? |
| Julius | 10/31/2002 | 2:50:38 PM | video and audio...do you see hypertext as moving away from the realm of traditional writing, and more into what is typically associated with film and television? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:51:26 PM | i guess you could see it that way...but when you think of hypertext you just think of an underlined blue word maybe...and i can take that and do a lot more with it if i take it out of its plain referential context |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:51:50 PM | When the hypertext community started forming, was it a collective effort from many "hypertexters" or did people start coming out one by one and with your work, were you sitting around the comp one day and decided to create it, or was it planned way in advance? |
| Andrea Stoll | 10/31/2002 | 2:52:27 PM | But different works work for different people, so we can't exactly say that a piece didn't "work" if it only didn't work for one person |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:53:11 PM | hypertext history: what's knowns as the second generation of hypertext or the web hypertexts starting coming out around 94-95 en masse i suppose. people didn't really have places to publish though. when literary journals went online, a few of them started doing it, and then most of them stopped. i don't know why. |
| Julius | 10/31/2002 | 2:53:26 PM | what direction is hypertext taking in terms of form? |
| Matthew&Laura | 10/31/2002 | 2:53:59 PM | do you consider the seemingly inevitable demise of individual pieces of hypertext, being that technology moves so quickly, the tools may not be available to run it? |
| Andrea Stoll | 10/31/2002 | 2:54:15 PM | Do you think hypertext will last, or do you think it will slowly disappear? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:54:29 PM | andrea, of course not.but if it works for one person maybe we can say that there is something going on there. i'm just not sure that to answer your initial question we have a framework for what makes a print book successful. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:54:56 PM | do you think hypertext will go out of style, kind of like 8 tracks... meaning, do you believe there is something new and exciting waiting on the horizon? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:54:57 PM | i've been reading a book about to come out, the new media reader compiled by noah wardrip and nick montfort....it comes with a cd with loads of old hypertexts created in the early days of computing... |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:55:21 PM | that most of us have never seen because the technology changed so much. so it finds a way to come out. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:55:33 PM | how long ago were the early days of computing? |
| Matthew&Laura | 10/31/2002 | 2:56:10 PM | who are some writers that influenced your writing? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:56:11 PM | 60s, 70s, 80s = period i am referring to |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:56:11 PM | i miss my apple II... |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:56:39 PM | what book, if any, is on your bedside table? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:56:56 PM | could you tell us about how links work in ALWS |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:56:59 PM | if you had to choose between reading a book or reading a hypertext ...which would you choose |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:57:00 PM | loads, contemporaries: denis johnson (jesus' son)....prehypertexters: cortazar (hopscotch) |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:57:09 PM | reading a book |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:57:38 PM | word |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:57:41 PM | there's nothing like it |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:57:55 PM | right now i'm reading arthur nersersian's "suicide casanova". it's the first book ever to come in a VHS case. [Hardcover binding into hard-plastic video cassette case.] |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:58:11 PM | wow... |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:58:16 PM | some books are too big though and them i would rather print out on paper. |
| Matthew&Laura | 10/31/2002 | 2:58:35 PM | did you get into programming early in life? did the time that your literary interests began coincide with your interests in technology? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 2:59:43 PM | i'm not a programmer. i know noncompiling programming lanaguages, which are basically scripts, vbscript, javascript, etc. and a little perl, which does compile...just enough to get by. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 2:59:51 PM | do you think the farther tech moves along, the more difficult it will be for beginners to get in, create their own work? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:00:49 PM | and no, words came way before computers...well that's not true...first books, then space invaders and pacman, then naked lunch ...then the apple II's...then on the road, then hunter s thomspon...then web site design... |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:01:23 PM | yeah...i basically think we need to have writers and programmers and graphic designers collaborating on all hypertexts now. the digital artists model. |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:02:29 PM | more like a film crew than an individual author. collaboration makes multimedia efforts go so much farther... |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:03:09 PM | any questions i skipped over you want to reiterate? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:03:10 PM | But it's more difficult for a solitary author to break in then, if it takes that many people |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:03:59 PM | Do you think hypertext stories are generally more effective if the author picks a subject that is related to disillusionment? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:04:16 PM | not to say it can't be done. if i were to recommend i'd say start on something small, a short piece, a poem, something to really work over. breaking in isn't necessarily as important as doing something good, right? |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:04:26 PM | how many of your stories are autobiographical? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:04:49 PM | whoah, disillusionment? well, i think most stories are better when the subject is related to disillusionment. i can't say i know exactly what you mean. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:05:27 PM | For example, car accidents, arguments, traumatic experiences |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:05:34 PM | i don't try to write autobiography. but i tend to take things and change them in the story so they work better. |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:05:53 PM | it's a good question this one...maybe it relates to the substance of a plot. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:06:42 PM | did going to grad school help your writing? would you tell a friend to go? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:07:21 PM | yes, go to grad school. but don't pay. go somewhere they pay you, and learn from them for free. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:07:21 PM | what do you find most rewarding about your work? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:08:28 PM | like i said earlier, i just like playing with words, and language and creating stories that way. somewhere along the line the structure of webs and linking became more intimare to me than that of a linear book. and so just trying is rewarding. |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:08:41 PM | and them when you blow-it becomes that self loathing someone else mentioned earlier. |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:09:28 PM | maybe i'm just disillusioned. |
| Matthew&Laura | 10/31/2002 | 3:09:32 PM | the process then,...so is that why the process is a self-reflexive theme within many hypertexts |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:09:57 PM | and does sharing parts of your life ever feel awkward |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:10:05 PM | because so many writers are trying to reconcile the very reason they're writing in the form? perhaps. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:10:45 PM | what kind of music are you listening to these days? |
| Matthew&Laura | 10/31/2002 | 3:10:48 PM | because they feel like they are in a new postmodern form that needs addressing thematically? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:11:09 PM | but, the self-reflexivity drives me crazy. i think we're finally past that monotony in print texts but the old guard of hypertext are holding on to it...some of them...not your codework people of course. they're different animals. |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:12:17 PM | listening to bright eyes, the strokes, and ugly cassanova... |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:13:10 PM | why does self-reflexivity drive you crazy? What would you rather see? |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:13:14 PM | but i kind of like the new wave of elctronica bands who play laptops too. part of me has to like that, even though i'm not too crazy about electronica...like adult for instance, the husband and wife team. she sings and he plays the G4 |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:13:59 PM | technology just keeps getting weirder |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:14:02 PM | pinback is really good... i saw them live and they use a laptop and midi processor... also Quasi is a wife/ husband combo divorced... really dark yet melodical |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:14:35 PM | reminds me of your writing actually, or vice versa |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:14:40 PM | Thanks for the chat |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:14:43 PM | Happy Halloween |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:14:46 PM | Very interesting |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:14:48 PM | Peace |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:14:50 PM | HAPPY NEW YEAR |
| Andrea Stoll | 10/31/2002 | 3:15:16 PM | Thanx for your patience |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:15:18 PM | Thank you for dealing with the mayhem and madness that is a UCSB classroom |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:15:22 PM | can't come up with the great things i should be saying, but my slightly lunatic feeling is that hypertext needs to become more tactile. i've begun to like the eastgate cds i get in the mail. but i like getting them in the mail more than i like reading them once i've got them.. |
| UCSB English Student | 10/31/2002 | 3:15:42 PM | hehe, like AOL trial disks |
| Jeff Parker | 10/31/2002 | 3:15:55 PM | i'm thinking that stephanie strickland, whose new poem ["V: WaveSon.nets/Losing L'una"] came out in print from a major publisher [Penguin] and online [http://vniverse.com] is probably a step in the direction i'll take. doing things that exist in hypertext and in the real world too |